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Abandoned TC beach still waiting – Part 2

Team Mike, Ask The RealtorsHello Record-Eagle readers,

Last time I talked about the efforts of Traverse City residents to restore a section(s) of the city’s westernmost beachfront, and the two sources of opposition being worked through – one understandable and frankly expected, the other from what I consider an irrational, and frankly unexpected direction.

Torpid bureaucracy and petty politics are an expected source of opposition to any efforts to affect change.  We are all familiar with it; we’ve all just had front row seats as our national government bickered over an accounting matter for so long that we’ve lost our “AAA” credit rating as a nation.  Having to work through inert bureaucracy to restore some beach along West Bay has to be expected.

In attempts to protect the Great Lakes as our penultimate resource over the years, the layers of red tape involved with any aspect of the lakes and their fresh water have grown formidable, and even overwhelmingly popular, non-destructive attempts to reclaim and restore parkland or beachfront face thick, stagnant opposition to action.

Peculiarly (maybe just to me), there is not any formal bureaucratic opposition to reclaiming beachfront along Traverse City’s West Bay as much as a numbing resistance to any activity or action whatsoever.  The city, the bay, and the beach have survived with this stretch of shoreline abandoned for the past two-plus decades, and bureaucracy’s self-preserving nature opposes changes of any kind simply as a result of the inertia of government and regulation itself.

Unfortunately, the other source of opposition baffles me — environmental extremism.

I share most Northern Michiganders’ love, appreciation, and bone-deep respect for our natural surroundings, and actively endeavor to not only help protect and preserve our precious environment, but strive to instill these same values in my children.  One of the best ways I know of doing this is to spend lots of time outdoors, immersed in the natural grandeur that surrounds us.  Hard not to develop an integral, religious notion of natural respect and service when you are engulfed in its beauty and majesty.

Why do environmental extremists oppose any change to the natural environment whatsoever?  In this case, the restoration of 200 feet of usable beachfront along Traverse City’s westernmost half mile of shore is being met with “don’t touch a blade of grass” opposition from “environmentalists.”

The Watershed Center of Grand Traverse Bay has publicly and repeatedly argued that the City’s reclamation of former swimming beach along its westernmost shoreline is:  1.  detrimental to water quality in the Grand Traverse Bay, 2. contrary to the City of Traverse City’s Master Plan, Parks & Recreation Plan, and the Bayfront Plan, and 3. needless, as there is no need for additional beachfront in Traverse City.

What?

Let’s look at the first point mathematically utilizing data taken directly from the Watershed Center’s website.  I know, not the Word of God, but not terribly difficult to verify elsewhere either.

There is 132-plus miles of Grand Traverse Bay shoreline, times 5,280 feet/mile, equals 696,960 feet of shoreline – 7/10ths of a million feet of shore.  Now divide that by 200 feet and you get not three tenths of 1% (0.0028), or just under 3/1,000ths of the Bay beaches.  200 feet of beach grooming is going to adversely affect the water quality in the Grand Traverse Bay?  They cannot be serious?  Oh, but they are.

Very serious.

Extremely serious.

How about looking at this from an area perspective?  The Grand Traverse Bay watershed covers roughly 1,000 square miles of Northwest Lower Michigan.  That’s about 28 billion square feet.  Now divide by, let’s say, 10,000 square feet (200 feet of shore by 50 feet of beach) of the watershed that is proposed to be groomed if the citizens’ request is ratified.  Can you even fit that one onto your calculator?

Or, you could consider this from a volumetric perspective.  There is an estimated 8.97 cubic miles of fresh water in the Grand Traverse Bay.  (Yeah, I know. Cubic mile. Even the unit of measurement is giant and cool!)  Nearly nine cubic miles of water is a lot of water, equal to over 1.3 trillion cubic feet of water (that’s trillion with a “T”), or nearly 10 trillion gallons.  With an annual replenishing rate of 260 billion gallons, just exactly how detrimental would grooming this 200 foot stretch of municipal beach be to the water quality of Grand Traverse Bay?  Seriously?

Okay.  You are probably starting to get my point.  You could pave this entire length of shoreline and not be able to scientifically quantify any detrimental effects on the water quality of the Grand Traverse Bay as a result.  To argue otherwise is ridiculous, and to insist that there is “strong scientific support” for the claim insults our intelligence,  mathematics, environmental science, and sincere concern for our beautiful natural environment shared by the vast majority of Northern Michiganders.

Most of us love the outdoors – that’s why we’re living here – and to argue that restoring the beach along this shore will damage the ecosystem of the bay, and moreover that support of this beach restoration is analogous to environmental disrespect, is both irresponsible and needlessly antagonizes the individuals and groups that actually share a common passion about natural beauty and resources.

Imagine how much positive gain for the Grand Traverse Bay could be gleaned by combining the environmental passion of the citizenry with the zeal of environmental extremists.

Rather than arguing over this restoration of 200 feet of beachfront, we could be discussing how to improve the actual wetlands that exist in the watershed, and the fresh water stream systems which flow into the bay.  We could be organizing beach trash clean-up parties, raising funds for more informational plaques and boardwalks, and better handicap access to the shoreline.

Swaths of natural shoreline, even right in town, could be set aside, cleaned, protected, and maintained for the enjoyment and benefit of generations.  Look at what a fantastic resource we have helped create along much of Traverse City’s waterfront in the last 10 years, especially compared to the historical mess that has existed there during the last century.

At the Parks and Recreation Committee’s June meeting, where citizens of the city and the Watershed Council faced off over this issue, the environmental group’s executive chair argued against any beach grooming whatsoever, and included a large number of images from wild shorelines around the Great Lakes as examples of the ideal.  Egregiously (at least to me), not a single one of those images included a single human being in them.

Is the absence of people on Traverse City’s beaches the right answer?

There is no arguing that humanity alters the natural environment.  Without us, there would be more fish, more plants, more bugs, and more frogs.  We have an obviously broad impact on Mother Earth, and there are a lot of us.  Human civilization has affected its surroundings all along, and the more of us that there are, and the more ‘developed’ our societies become, the greater the strain on nature’s systems and the greater the urgency to help protect their natural balance.

So what is the solution?  Do we not touch another blade of grass along Traverse City’s shoreline, or do we intelligently and respectfully husband our natural resources as best we can?  Does grooming beaches inside the population centers to concentrate usage there make sense?  Or should we endeavor to do away with our active management of Traverse City’s shoreline as partial compensation for mankind’s generally negative impact on our natural environment?

As always, I look forward to your comments and questions, and check back again when I discuss the other two points of opposition that the Watershed Center is arguing against this proposal.

All the best,

Mike
MikeGaines@C21Northland.com
GrandTraverseAreaRealEstate.com

  • Gene

    Mike,
    They are not taking you seriously. If they were, they would create an EIS. The weapon to shut most people up. The dreaded Environmental Impact Statement. It is very costly, but no problem these days with the Obama Money, and it is long and drawn out, but again no problem – we (they) have 2 more years of FOO time and money. And of course it would qualify as a stimulus program. It would start by inventorying every document every created relating to the region, regarding the geology, vegetation, natural occurring animals, and all the destruction that has occurred since Father Marquette canoed by. It is kind of like an MAI appraisal. Made as Instructed. With some creative goberment thinkers directing and paying a favorite FOO consultant, they could show some rich person may be seduced to drive a Jaguar with an internal combustion engine that would park in a paved parking lot at the beach and thus drop some dirty Castrol that would wash into the fresh canoable water right after it had pumped x number of cubic feet of carbon into the air and made life difficult for the coke drinking polar bear 20k miles to the north. Armed with this information, and if Obama could buy another 4 years, they would embark on an EA (Environmental Assessment). That could easily eat up the remaining four years and put a peer-reviewed-scientific end to your whining. If they propose doing the EA before the EIS, just keep paying your taxes and dreaming. It is their prerogative.     

  • Bob

    Hello Mike

    These are not people who can be moved by numbers or science, they are true believers and SWPL status markers.  I suspect you will find a large overlap with the people that shut down the zoo.  They see the 7 billion people of the earth as a pestilence rather than something to celebrate. 

    “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything.” –  GK Chesterton

  • jeff4

    Labelling those who wish to preserve and protect our water resources as “extremists” is a nice way to deflect the issue of your capitalistic, money hungry, develop at all costs, “I-might-mak-more-commision-if-we-have-more-beach” attitude Mike.

    We don’t ask for ALL of the shoreline to remain “natural”, we only ask that this 200 feet of the tens of thousands of feet in the city limits remain natural.

    And Mike, you are right — “Rather than arguing over this restoration of 200 feet of beachfront, we could be discussing how to improve the actual wetlands that exist in the watershed, and the fresh water stream systems which flow into the bay.  We could be organizing beach trash clean-up parties, raising funds for more informational plaques and boardwalks, and better handicap access to the shoreline”  BUT, we have already done this!!!!!

    and here are your answers, mine in caps. 
    So what is the solution?  LEAVE A SMALL PIECE OF NATURAL, UNTOUCHED LANDSCAPE HERE AND THERE FOR THE ANIMALS AND THE TREES AND THE WEEDS AND BUGS AND THE WORMS AND THE CRUSTACEANS THE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO WANT TO SEE THEM.    Do we not touch another blade of grass along Traverse City’s shoreline, or do we intelligently and respectfully husband our natural resources as best we can? OF COURSE WE INTELLIGENTLY HUSBAND OUR NATURAL RESOURCES MIKE.  THAT’S WHY WE LEAVE SOME NATURAL!!!!!!!! Does grooming beaches inside the population centers to concentrate usage there make sense? BEACH GROOMING NEVER EVER EVER EVER MAKES SENSE.  MOTHER NATURE IS THE BEST BEACH GROOMER.  Or should we endeavor to do away with our active management of Traverse City’s shoreline as partial compensation for mankind’s generally negative impact on our natural environment?  YES.

  • Steve Redder

    censorship is the final act of a coward.

  • Gene

    As a compromise with the enviro-wacko-Luddites, I propose limiting car parking on-site to those who promise to switch from Castrol R motor oil, back to the original natural bean based castor oil lubricant. Plus the blow-by from the engine would leave the most fragrant and beautiful smell ever hanging in the air for a few seconds. Plus it would create jobs, by requiring a goberment-inspector be hired to smell the air and find any non-conforming oil drips. While my comments are based in satire, the enviro-wacko-Luddites that populate the modern day Democrat Party are deadly serious in their comments. See above. Those are actual comments made by a socialist on the goberment payroll who double-dips with a cushy-Davenport job. Follow the money. Does the “I-might-mak-more money . ” mak any sense from a guy who has no understanding of capitalism or CAPS?    

  • jeff4

    gene, you actually seem to make sense for part of your comments above!! good work.

  • Bob

    Jeff, this is you idea of what science is?

  • jeff4

    tough to argue against good peer reviewed science backed up with data hey Mike.  No reply?

  • Gene

    DEFINITIONpeer reviewnoun
    evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by a collection of other like-minded fools working in the same field, all trying to get the same slush-fund-government grant.

    verb [ trans. ] ( peer-review)subject (someone or something) to such evaluation.

  • Bob

    If so, I am glad you do not teach my children.  The .pdf file that you link to goes well beyond any reasonable claim science would make into the realm of advocacy.
    http://www.aps.org/policy/statements/99_6.cfm
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/09/index.html
    http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_learn_more_weaver.shtml

    • jeff4

      if conservation, reclamation, and saving our environment means advocacy for our natural resources Bob then I”m all for it.  You better start home schooling because MANY MANY school kids in the TC area work closely with the Grand Traverse Watershed Association – a huge advocate of saving our shorelines from development.

      • Bob

        Jeff I concur the schools are rife with Neo-Gaiaism disguised as science.  The charter school my children attend is no exception.  The school is however not the start or the end of my children’s education.  I am confident that all of my children will have the tools they need to distinguish between soft headed crackpot nonsense, and science.

        There are many things I would like to conserve and a healthy environment for my children is certainly on that list.  My contention is that private property ownership and the stewardship that comes with it is our best hope to do just that.  The agrarian values I see lived out by my father in law are the model I would suggest. They work just as well in our suburban society. The notion that while ones name may be on the deed it is really just a thing held in trust for our descendents.

        As to reclamation you might consult a land conservancy they would be happy for your support to buy up swamp land and preserve it.  Perhaps one day they will forswear the use of tax dollars and get my support as well.

  • Robert Oliver

    Hello Jeff
    Due to the compressed column width let me please consolidate my reply to your latest posts.
    With respect to the first as to which is the biggest crackpot, it is tough competition but I guess I would have to give that one to the M-DEQ.  
    On the second, you either misunderstand or choose to twist my statement.  What I gained from them was respect for science.
    For the last, if you don’t like the label I used please substitute your own.  What I refer is the idea that there was this perfectly balanced natural world and then along came evil greedy (capitalistic, money hungry, develop at all costs, “I-might-mak-more-commision-if-we-have-more-beach”) human kind to despoil this Eden.  So listen to me now and go home and tell your evil polluting parents to recycle so everything doesn’t die.
    You caught me yes I am a DEVOlution fan.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cadA5iANN2o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbt30UnzRWw
    When a problem comes along, I think we must whip it.

    • jeff4

      oh dont sorry bob, i’m a huge de-evolution fan too, in fact I own every devo album, but prefer the really old stuff to the new.  a fan of the music and the idea both!! double fun.

      Yes i chose to twist your words.  I understood what you meant, but I hope you also realize that the science that went into creating that pamphlet was about as spot on as science can be.  If you kill wetlands and strip beaches of their water buffering abilities, then water quality goes down the tubes.

    • jeff4

      gates of steel and girl u want are two of my fave all time songs too bob.  we may differ in our view of the value of science, but we sure agree on musical tastes.

      • Bob

        Differ in our view of the value of science, is not quite how I would characterize it.  A difference in our understanding of just what constitutes science is more the way I see it.  You have held out the watershed council publication as “exactly what my idea of science is”.  I contend that the aforesaid publication is misguided environmental advocacy with only tenuous connections to science.  Take a look at the pictures/captions on pages 8 & 11 and then I would suggest you need to reevaluate your idea of just what science is. 
         
        http://cygnus-group.com/CIDM/science.html
        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/038526108X/cygnusgroupulsre
        http://junkscience.com/what-is-junk-science/
        http://www.experiment-resources.com/index.html

        • jeff4

          bob, one last question before we end our dispute.  Do you have a degree in science?  I have a BS in Chemistry Biology and Mathematics and a masters in Biology.

        • jeff4

          oh wait, one more question.  WHat does the word “theory” mean to you Bob?

          • Bob

            Jeff, if you want to play CV poker I am just a lowly Engineer.  I actually cribbed this and slightly modified it from the Merriam-Webster definition of hypothesis it seems a pretty good fit for what we are discussing.

            Theory: a tentative assumption made in light of all the known data in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences

            Those that get repeatedly tested without being shown to be false are generally accepted as laws (IE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics ).

            If you can look at the pictures/captions on pages 8 & 11 of the watershed document and still support this as “exactly what my idea of science is” then we are clearly not on the same page as to what science is.  I have provided numerous links in the previous posts to sources of information about what good science is.  “Science” would not make the claim that these picture/captions imply that the proximate cause of the muck seen in the second picture is beach grooming. Misguided environmental advocates would.

          • jeff4

            yes, pictures on page 8 and 11 are exactly what science is Bob.  Its shows the effect of beach grooming.  Good science.

          • jeff4

            as for your definition, I guess its ok for cribbing it from the dictionary.  what is your personal definition and thought when you hear or read something about a scientific theory? 

          • Bob

            No, Jeff it is just not so.  The evidence to connect beach grooming as a significant contributor to the muck just is not there. Please see the attached document.

            http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/Centers/HABS/docs/muck_brochure.pdf

            As to the definition the one I gave does match mine that is why I used the one from hypothesis as opposed to the one from theory. The M-W theory definition was not clear enough to fit the discussion we were having. I would suggest you question yourself about the line of reasoning that leads to the question, because to me it like the CV poker looks like an attempt to find a reason dismiss the person rather than deal with discussion of the actual facts.

  • http://www.thearmchairconservative.com Troy Keith

    I was very encouraged to hear that Jeff (once my head stopped spinning).. hopefully you create opportunities to point out both sides of that
    “science” whenever possible.  We can all agree that pollution
    is bad, clean air & water are good – There must be some way to find a balance between the industrialists and the rainbow warriors of our day.

    • jeff4

      i thought we’d had this conversation a while back TK.  And, yes i point out both sides of the argument in my classroom. 

  • Gene

    Jeff,

    While your idea of music is some yahoo group, mine is a an undisputed genius who has been peer-reviewed and recognized for 200 years, W.A.M.  Nuff said.

    Of course, I am using satire to comment on your precious peer review worship. And of course, I am referring to you liberals co-opting the subject of  environment. You guys line up a bunch of special groups and self-interested professionals and fail to recognize the greater community of diffused interests that exist. If those people speak up, you use the nuff said end of discussion approach made famous by your biggest dog, AlGore. I realize even you have probably distanced yourself from that yahoo. 

    Science, whoa. How can anyone argue with science. Watershed, whoa. Frogs, whoa. We, the diffused interest community also love science and watersheds and frogs. We disagree with your use of politics to implement your extremism. We are tired of you crying wolf every time someone wants to do something constructive. We, the diffused interest community are happy that AlGore has overexposed himself. I am not referring to the masseuse’s testimony, but to his extremism movie that was foisted upon many public school children. We, the diffused interest community are also happy the research is coming out on how man made warming fraud was formulated at University of East Anglia. 

    We the diffused interest community await for the truth to filter down through national to local politics to the local watershed alphabet soup groups while we will enjoy life and live on mother earth without destroying her.

  • jeff4

    Gene obviously you are feeling left out.  thanks for all your input.  and, for what its worth i refused to show the al gore movie in my classroom.

  • Gene

    You are welcome Jeff. Once you get the definition from Bob on his definiton of ‘theory,’ maybe you will learn where he is coming from, but I doubt it. 

    You of the “Concentrated Interests,” have to muck up things to argue your point. We of the “Diffused Interests” have to clarify. We sometimes resort to common sense. Your concentrated interests of ‘scientists’ and ‘watershed experts’ cannot in any way show how a bathing beach 200 feet long is going to have any harm on the natural environment of Grand Traverse Bay. Glad you threw AlGore overboard. People are catching on the your guys extremism, so get ready to throw some more overboard.   

  • jeff4

    Gene, I was visiting the pictured rocks national lakeshore near munising this summer.  While i was there i sitting on the beach looking at lake superior just contemplating life.  I picked up a piece of driftwood and a small rock, thinking it would be neat to take it home with me as a “souvenir” of the day.  While on my way back to my vehicle i saw a sign that said “It is unlawful to remove driftwood, rocks, plants or any other natural material from this beach.”   What could be the harm in me taking one rock and one stick Gene?????!!!!!!  What could be the hard in removing another 200 feet from mother nature’s Grand Traverse Bay? (if you havent guessed the answer yet, here it is — If i take one rock and the next guy takes one and the next guy takes one, pretty soon lots of rocks are gone.  If we take 200 here and 200 feet there, and 100 feet here, pretty soon mother nature loses her ability to keep grand traverse bay clean for future generations, she can’t feed her fish, she can’t do what nature intended).  Needless to say, i walked back to the beach and placed the rock and stick back where i found them.

  • jeff4

    Gene, I was visiting the pictured rocks national lakeshore near munising this summer.  While i was there i sitting on the beach looking at lake superior just contemplating life.  I picked up a piece of driftwood and a small rock, thinking it would be neat to take it home with me as a “souvenir” of the day.  While on my way back to my vehicle i saw a sign that said “It is unlawful to remove driftwood, rocks, plants or any other natural material from this beach.”   What could be the harm in me taking one rock and one stick Gene?????!!!!!!  What could be the hard in removing another 200 feet from mother nature’s Grand Traverse Bay? (if you havent guessed the answer yet, here it is — If i take one rock and the next guy takes one and the next guy takes one, pretty soon lots of rocks are gone.  If we take 200 here and 200 feet there, and 100 feet here, pretty soon mother nature loses her ability to keep grand traverse bay clean for future generations, she can’t feed her fish, she can’t do what nature intended).  Needless to say, i walked back to the beach and placed the rock and stick back where i found them.

  • Gene

    Jeff, I myself confess to having climbed 14,000 ft. mountain peaks and kicked loose some talus or loose rock. While I wasn’t breaking a law like you (ha !) I, in retrospect eroded those peaks probably a few hundred years, or maybe a thousand years? Once slid down a scree slope; how much history gone? Philosophically, I wonder how these goosey-environmentalists do not ban mountain climbing? Believe me, if they could they would. But most mountain climbers are nature loving people, and may be even goosey-wacko-enviros, but they are also people who like to do that. So it has not caught on yet. No use to gore ones own ox. Let’s promote feel-good effect everyone else laws. My ultra-liberal commie neighbor drives to the grocery store and parks in the handicapped spot, with me in the car. I look at him. “We only going to be here a little while.” Let’s not worry about how these silly laws effect ourselves. But back to subject; that 200 feet of beach will still be there and no one is going to take it home. And I disagree that the cleansing nature of the sand will also be gone because the weeds would be removed. You nature loving well meaning enviros have to learn the meaning of compromise and living with your fellow man and learn common sense!! Until then you are wacko-enviros and you are having a detrimental effect on our country. You have to learn the phrase, ” . .   to a degree.” 

    PS, ever find a Petoskey stone? Want to fess up?? 

    • jeff4

      Gene this is pure gibberish.  What was your point?

  • Gene

    PPS
    Your driving your vehicle all the way to Pictured Rocks fed. goberment grab area must have pumped how many pounds of carbon into our atomosphere? Want to do the math and fess up?

    • jeff4

      i drive a nissan leaf Gene.

      • Gene

        So you drive a coal powered car.
        So what. I don’t care how much carbon you pump into the air.

        Our discussion has nothing to do with carbon footprints, Jeff.

  • jeff4

    our discussion has nothing to do with carbon footprints Gene.

  • Ed Hahnenberg

    Gene…This whole discussion is much ado about nothing. I asked a relative of mine who was going to visit the Great Pyramid in Egypt to bring me back a little chip of it. Done. Also, while he was visiting the Holy Land…maybe a small artifact. Done.  People have done this for centuries and will do so for many more. I don’t see any pyramid in danger of collapse. They’ve done quite well for several millennia. Maybe some century down the road someone will find that socket wrench I lost on the farm in ’88. Good for them. Update. My son-in-law found a disc plate that had come off in my corn field a decade ago. I told him to keep it. Sacred stuff, you know. Groom the beach and enjoy it. The earth was made for man and not the other way around.

  • Ed Hahnenberg

    Jeff…You didn’t read the rest of the story…Benedict’s 2010 comment:

    “If the Church’s Magisterium expresses grave misgivings about notions of the environment inspired by ecocentrism and biocentrism, it is because such notions eliminate the difference of identity and worth between the human person and other living things.  In the name of a supposedly egalitarian vision of the ‘dignity’ of all living creatures, such notions end up abolishing the distinctiveness and superior role of human beings.  They also open the way to a new pantheism tinged with neo-paganism, which would see the source of man’s salvation in nature alone, understood in purely naturalistic terms…” 

  • Bob

    Like I said to Mike at the start. Not people who can be moved by numbers or science.  Even when shown that the actual cause of the muck on page 11 is cladophora, with a more probable contributor of invasive species and the increased water clarity they cause Jeff still wants to blame beach grooming.

    • Bob

      Blog Admin please do somthing about the min. width of comments. This is painful to read.

  • Gene

    Bob,
    Claim 
    victory. 
    You 
    winnowed 
    Jeff
    down to 
    nothing. 
    Read 
    Ann 
    Coulter’s 
    book, 
    “How to 
    Argue 
    with a 
    Liberal 
    (If you must).” 

  • Gene

    Jeff,
    If you run across this, not in reply to anything above that gets into too narrow a format to discuss, , . . regarding your little leaf comment, . . I proudly drive a total of 28 cylinders of internal combustion firepower. Some even prefer lead ethyl formulas to lubricate their valve guides. Yum.
    Thank you.

  • Bob

    From Google maps, TC to Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore is 266 mi, 5 hours 53 mins one way. According to Nissan, the Leaf’s expected all-electric range is 160 kilometres (100 mi). This leads to my question Jeff.  How long is the extension cord you run to those windmills?  A Nissan Leaf trip from TC to Pictured Rocks that is run all from your home windmills seems quite a feat.  I see a price of between $7-15K per windmill prior to installation, maintenance, and financing not exactly my idea of free. I do however congratulate you on the choice of American made energy equipment.  It would be better if you were charging an American car with it.

    How many times did you have to stop to charge to make the trip?

  • jeff4

    plugged it in near Naubinway at a friends house, he has a sustainable house on the shore of lake michigan with geothermal heating and a windmill.  this got me halfway there (almost) then had to plug in again at Munising.  Bob’s 266 miles is way off – i’m only 182 miles from there so it was one charge up and one charge back.  had to use $1.96 worth of charge in munising to get back to full power.  So yes, i had to rely on the grid for some power, can’t burn all my bridges yet.

  • jeff4

    by my calculations coal provides about 0.08% of my power.  i occasionally charge my cell phone at work, but keep the lights off in my office.

  • Gene

    What kind of an office does a schoolteacher have?

    Did you appreciate that $7,500 that we (U.S. taxpayers) put toward the purchase price of that expensive little car? Hey, how does that electric heater work? How about the electric air conditioning work? Better enjoy it while you can. If we get that socialist out of the White House, we are going to roll back some of your bennies. You might have to replace those expensive environmentally hazardous batteries on your own. Save up.

    But, back to the beach. Did you ever drive that little leaf over and sit on the beach at Big Rock Point? When I was a kid, our parents took us through the power plant of the future – Big Rock Nuclear Plant – big open house when it started generating nuclear power. My dad even took the furnace out of our house and installed all-electric heat. Consumers Power Company offered discounted rates for such users. But then the enviros started the 50 year war against nuclear power – and hydroelectric power. Took out the power dams for the fish. Took out the nuclear plant because it couldn’t get it’s license renewed after the commie libs started scaring people. Now, the same people say they support nuclear power, but it is a lie. Obama says he wants to start nuclear power again, but he is a liar. It is not going to happen. Unless we can get said messiah socialist out of the White House. Can you imagine the Environmental Impact Statement necessary today to build a nuclear power plant. We cannot even pull the weeds on the beach in Traverse City so we can go swimming.   

    • jeff4

      pro-nuke here Gene and yes thanks for the $7500, helped with the purchase price.  luckily i pay cash with my big paychecks.  Office space?  yes i have some.  one desk in a closet with no windows.

      Yes been to big rock.   since its a zero emissions plant i’d guess the environmental impact statement is lower than the several thousand pounds of lead mercury sulfur nitrogen monoxide and other assorted goodies spewed from your beloved coal.

  • Gene

    What kind of an office does a schoolteacher have?

    Did you appreciate that $7,500 that we (U.S. taxpayers) put toward the purchase price of that expensive little car? Hey, how does that electric heater work? How about the electric air conditioning work? Better enjoy it while you can. If we get that socialist out of the White House, we are going to roll back some of your bennies. You might have to replace those expensive environmentally hazardous batteries on your own. Save up.

    But, back to the beach. Did you ever drive that little leaf over and sit on the beach at Big Rock Point? When I was a kid, our parents took us through the power plant of the future – Big Rock Nuclear Plant – big open house when it started generating nuclear power. My dad even took the furnace out of our house and installed all-electric heat. Consumers Power Company offered discounted rates for such users. But then the enviros started the 50 year war against nuclear power – and hydroelectric power. Took out the power dams for the fish. Took out the nuclear plant because it couldn’t get it’s license renewed after the commie libs started scaring people. Now, the same people say they support nuclear power, but it is a lie. Obama says he wants to start nuclear power again, but he is a liar. It is not going to happen. Unless we can get said messiah socialist out of the White House. Can you imagine the Environmental Impact Statement necessary today to build a nuclear power plant. We cannot even pull the weeds on the beach in Traverse City so we can go swimming.   

  • Gene

    Actually, I wonder if you have been to Big Rock Point. The power plant was removed completely, and the site has been returned to nature. So you should have been talking in past tense re, it’s emissions should be not “is” but “WAS.” 

    If you are speculating on the kilowatts it takes to charge your cell phone, then we have a serious problem. I would put that at negligible. And I wonder how you can get .08% of your usage . . that is some serious calculation. And I just had a ‘bamo’ moment with your office comment . . . You are not a teacher in public schools, you are probably an actual real full blood 100% college professor! It makes sense with teaching at Davenport in the summer. Davenport, that cushy place! More proof, of your elite teaching position, . . you have no sense of humor! 

    • jeff4

      yes i believe it was taken down in 2002?? was there in 90′s and then again almost every summer when i ride my bike from Petoskey to Charlevoix along that nice bike trail along the shore. 

      as for my 0.08%, i was bluffing, but it is low.  I am and have been a high school teacher, middle school teacher, college professor, fast food technician, researcher, pharmacist, trail supervisor, campground ranger.  all good jobs, none “cushy”

      How about you Gene?  Let me guess … sub-prime mortgage lender/dealer? ;)

  • Gene

    Jeff,
    I am a self-employed eat-what-I-kill private sector architectural-field guy who hasn’t eaten in 2-years. Have-been electrician, worked for the U.S. Forest Service once, but never did hamburger flipping, which appears to be an opportunity with present economy. At least that is what O. was touting recently; 50,000 new McDonalds’ jobs. I emphasize that because during the Reagan Revolution when 17-million new jobs were created, the brain-dead Democrats would only mutter, “they are not good jobs, but hamburger flipper jobs.”
    Bob,
    I think Big Rock Point is an excellent link to this Traverse City beach story. I enjoyed your history. Back when it was built in the 1960′s there was no such thing and an E.I.S. or even the E.P.A. for that matter. Nixon was just creating it, and it hadn’t morphed into the anti-capitalism org. it is at present. While libs say they are for nuclear power, I do not believe it. Until they or we do away with the EPA, it will never happen. The E.P.A. is not about the environment anymore. We cannot even build a sandy beach nowadays because of so-called environmental reasons. Can you imagine building a nuclear power plant. I cannot.  

  • jeff4

    Here’s one environmentalist, commie loving, bleeding heart liberal tree hugger in favor of NUKES.  They’re safe, zero emission and good.

  • Gene

    I chatted up a young lady sitting next to me on the plane. She was a college freshman majoring in history. . . Stick with me Jeff, there is a point here. Her first history course, an elective she chose, was the Kennedy assignation. She had never heard of Petrarch. She said she could study history in any order. I was slightly dumbfounded, not even considering the 1960′s as history. 

    So when I see the term NUKES used to refer to nuclear power plants, it makes me wonder. Is the Cold War and NUKES and that cultural icon film, ‘Dr. Strangelove – Or How I learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb,’ and Jane Fonda and Three Mile Island . all history? I lament we don’t teach ancient history, but do we teach recent cultural events, or only those that suit an agenda? Or do we re-appropriate meanings in popular culture for some agenda? For some reason, the left seems to have flipped on the desirability of nuclear power plants. However, I really don’t think they have. They know their new-NUKES will not be built because they will stop them in the Yucca Mountain end game, if the NIMBY and enviro gambits fail. I think it is merely their only alternative to stop petroleum use. And that is solely based on their (mis-)understanding of AWG, aka global warming politicized.

    But meanwhile, back on the beach in Traverse City . . The global warming which is now becoming to be known as a distortion of science has become the basis for their politics which has become ingrained all the way down the food chain and is being taught in schools and colleges by the genX crowd and younger generations. Jeff, in all your reasoning to not pull the weeds on the beach and to drive great distances across pretty Michigan landscapes in an electric car, I didn’t see economics mentioned. Sure, you liked me contributing to the purchase price, and you liked to mooch free electricity to run it, but your main reason was to ‘save the earth’ enviro-ism. You didn’t mention not improving the beach because it cost too much. That would be the only reason I can see for not improving the beach.

    Bottom line; drill baby drill and build nuclear power plants and build nice groomed beaches and drive whatever you want to drive. Enjoy the Michigan environment and go swimming.

    • jeff4

      improving the beach means leaving it as it is — wild.  wild beaches are the most improved beaches.  Economics?  watch the water quality in grand traverse bay drop, fish die, pollution, etc and see how your tourist economy suffers Gene.  We have to keep it clean and fresh to fuel our TC economy. 

      And, you’re right.  My car does run for free.  WInd is free.

      and yes, NUKES, Dr. Strangelove my hero.  Nukes not only solve our oil problem, but solve the dam problem too.  Luckily they are putting the boardman back to its natural state – dam(n) dams.  But i’m sure Mike Gaines’ next column will be all the money lost when the lakefront property was lost on the boardman impoundments.

      All in all a nice post Gene.  Well thought out and cohesive.

    • jeff4

      do you believe global warming is happening Gene?  simple question, please stick with a simple YES or NO.

  • Bob
  • Anonymous

    Well Jeffo,
    If this is the beach being talked about today, then we are about to see “water quality in G.T. Bay drop, fish die, pollution, etc.” according to you. I would like to hold you guys to your dire predictions, and come back in a few years and see the results. BTW, I must have also missed Mikes next column on loss of real estate values you also predicted. My bet is things will be just fine if they pull the weeds.

  • jeff4

    you can call them weeds if you like.  i call them native plants stopping erosion, connecting the food webs, sheltering animals, and filtering out excess nutrients.

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